No replies to this topic

[Goiyon]

If allowed by the moderators, I have originally posted this in The Trollgame's Round Table section of the forum, but as I am unsure where it is more fitting I have also posted it here. Feel free to remove the post in the more unsuitable location.

 

The following is a - hopefully - concise summary of what I think is wrong with the current teamhit system. On an otherwise truly wonderful siege server that is the current mainstay of Mount & Blade Warband multiplayer, this is the one thorn in its side, and I personally think it needs to be changed.

 

As we know, the teamhit system that is currently in place is one that stuns/staggers both victim and perpetrator, giving the animation and effect of being hit, while dealing almost no health damage. When teamhitting results in a set number of teamkills - either in immediate fashion through siege weaponry hits or through a teamhit landing on a player near death - a player is kicked from the server. While this a system that is typical of a large population "casual" server, I find that it invites and even promotes a careless play style that has the potential be detrimental to the performance and enjoyment of other players.

 

The direct repercussions are equally - and oftentimes even more - harmful to the victim than the perpetrator, for two reasons: a teamhit by melee weapons is statistically most common by being hit in the back, meaning that the victim is stunned/staggered in the immediate proximity of an enemy player, while the perpetrator is safer behind him; a teamhit by ranged weapons - which is the largest cause of teamhits by a large margin - results the victim being stunned/staggered while located in the midst of a melee, while the perpetrator is at a relatively safe distance. In both cases, the victim is more likely to have the stun/stagger rob him of his defenses in a critical moment, rather than the perpetrator.

 

The indirect repercussions are - somewhat ironically - no deterrent for repeat offenders, while being a potential deterrent to valuable actions: an example would be a well placed trebuchet shot that takes out a dozen enemy players while also collaterally killing three friendly players. While a kick on three teamkills on its own would not be a bad policy, it does become a bad policy when in contrast the repeat offenders of teamhits, which stems from carelessness rather than - sometimes unavoidable - collateral damage, get away with a stun/stagger while - as I illustrated in the previous point - often being safe from bodily harm, at least relative to their victims. As a result, there is no reason to thick twice about teamhitting, while using siege weaponry may become a daunting prospect as a result.

 

While the faults in the current system are quite easily identified, its more difficult to offer a solution. However, as a long time player of cRPG before that mod stagnated, I think the most important part of any solution is to create a deterrent to carelessness and a three-strikes-and-you're-out policy is one way to do this. In other words: full teamhit damage, three teamkills and you are kicked, potentially augmented by a system of three kicks and you are - temporarily - banned. While this seems strict in comparison to the current rule set, I think the server needs a stricter teamhit policy and one that punishes perpetrators rather than victims, and one that deters repeat offending: it is more reasonable to have a careless player kill three friendly players to then be kicked than a careless player running around multiple rounds hitting friendlies continuously without repercussions. Also, never underestimate the stigma of having a minus score towards being a deterrent for teamkilling.

 

I am interested in the point of view of other people, not only on what I think are the faults in the current teamhit system, but also (in the case you agree) as to how the system should be changed. I have also included a small and simple poll to attempt to gauge the opinion of the player base that is active on the forums. Thank you for your time.

[PizzaDelivery]

i agree but, i can jump in front of blackdeath when he shoots and get him kicked 

[Helgisa]

Mr.PizzaDelivery, that is most savage!

[whore]

I think teamhit should be 1/2 or 1/3 so if a fullhit is 40 damage your teammate would lose 20 hp or 13 hp. Also teammhitting should be displayed on chat. Ive seen this on another server where teamhitting is displayed on chat and admins are kicking/banning people who teamhit on porpuse within minutes. Its working beautifully.

[Pyrrha]

Turning on teamhit would be awesome,

but maybe 100% is too harsh,

like probang said, 33% or 50% would be cool already

[Goiyon]

I think teamhit should be 1/2 or 1/3 so if a fullhit is 40 damage your teammate would lose 20 hp or 13 hp. Also teammhitting should be displayed on chat. Ive seen this on another server where teamhitting is displayed on chat and admins are kicking/banning people who teamhit on porpuse within minutes. Its working beautifully.

 

I hadn't thought about displaying teamhitting in the chat; that would definitely be a great way to stigmatize teamhitting and be a deterrent to repeat offenders. It would also be relatively easy to implement, without needing to look at how teamhit damage influences the gameplay.

 

Turning on teamhit would be awesome,

but maybe 100% is too harsh,

like probang said, 33% or 50% would be cool already

 

That could be an option, especially when combined with a message displayed on teamhit.

[ICA_Gazz]

Teamhitting, in my opinion, would be very tricky to do in such a way that it would be widely accepted by the public players on the server, as the majority just left click for victory. I do agree that the stun is annoying when you yourself have done nothing wrong in the melee, example being, you could be utterly slapping someone, your friendly comes along to get a cheeky kill that they didn't earn and gets you both killed. Because of this little stun that gets me killed by no fault of my own (unless, of course I'm the one that hit the friendly) makes me tend to avoid friendly players all together.

 

On the archer side of the topic i feel i can comment a little more, as its basically all i can be arsed playing. Aye, people team hit as archer as they do feel no repercussions from it and some people just cant shoot really. However, sometimes it is entirely the fault of the person that got shot, this being that they have the awareness of a casket rolling down a hill and walk in front of someone shooting. Why should the person shooting get punished for someone being blind? Or if they are trolling being naked, jumping in front of people just to get them banned? Then what method would be employed in order to counter this common form of trolling?

 

There is no easy way to really manage it effectively no matter the option, not to mention the transition would be tricky and painful at first, whatever the decision would be. However, i would agree that something needs to be changed in some way so that the person that got hit isn't punished to all hell. Sadly doing this would encourage people to stand under the oil or where siege weapons commonly attack, this would only punish the person using that equipment, which itself is not great either.

[The_Knight_Who_Says_NI]

 

If allowed by the moderators, I have originally posted this in The Trollgame's Round Table section of the forum, but as I am unsure where it is more fitting I have also posted it here. Feel free to remove the post in the more unsuitable location.

 

The following is a - hopefully - concise summary of what I think is wrong with the current teamhit system. On an otherwise truly wonderful siege server that is the current mainstay of Mount & Blade Warband multiplayer, this is the one thorn in its side, and I personally think it needs to be changed.

 

As we know, the teamhit system that is currently in place is one that stuns/staggers both victim and perpetrator, giving the animation and effect of being hit, while dealing almost no health damage. When teamhitting results in a set number of teamkills - either in immediate fashion through siege weaponry hits or through a teamhit landing on a player near death - a player is kicked from the server. While this a system that is typical of a large population "casual" server, I find that it invites and even promotes a careless play style that has the potential be detrimental to the performance and enjoyment of other players.

 

The direct repercussions are equally - and oftentimes even more - harmful to the victim than the perpetrator, for two reasons: a teamhit by melee weapons is statistically most common by being hit in the back, meaning that the victim is stunned/staggered in the immediate proximity of an enemy player, while the perpetrator is safer behind him; a teamhit by ranged weapons - which is the largest cause of teamhits by a large margin - results the victim being stunned/staggered while located in the midst of a melee, while the perpetrator is at a relatively safe distance. In both cases, the victim is more likely to have the stun/stagger rob him of his defenses in a critical moment, rather than the perpetrator.

 

The indirect repercussions are - somewhat ironically - no deterrent for repeat offenders, while being a potential deterrent to valuable actions: an example would be a well placed trebuchet shot that takes out a dozen enemy players while also collaterally killing three friendly players. While a kick on three teamkills on its own would not be a bad policy, it does become a bad policy when in contrast the repeat offenders of teamhits, which stems from carelessness rather than - sometimes unavoidable - collateral damage, get away with a stun/stagger while - as I illustrated in the previous point - often being safe from bodily harm, at least relative to their victims. As a result, there is no reason to thick twice about teamhitting, while using siege weaponry may become a daunting prospect as a result.

 

While the faults in the current system are quite easily identified, its more difficult to offer a solution. However, as a long time player of cRPG before that mod stagnated, I think the most important part of any solution is to create a deterrent to carelessness and a three-strikes-and-you're-out policy is one way to do this. In other words: full teamhit damage, three teamkills and you are kicked, potentially augmented by a system of three kicks and you are - temporarily - banned. While this seems strict in comparison to the current rule set, I think the server needs a stricter teamhit policy and one that punishes perpetrators rather than victims, and one that deters repeat offending: it is more reasonable to have a careless player kill three friendly players to then be kicked than a careless player running around multiple rounds hitting friendlies continuously without repercussions. Also, never underestimate the stigma of having a minus score towards being a deterrent for teamkilling.

 

I am interested in the point of view of other people, not only on what I think are the faults in the current teamhit system, but also (in the case you agree) as to how the system should be changed. I have also included a small and simple poll to attempt to gauge the opinion of the player base that is active on the forums. Thank you for your time.

 

Good post.But:
 

 

 In other words: full teamhit damage, three teamkills and you are kicked, potentially augmented by a system of three kicks and you are - temporarily - banned. While this seems strict in comparison to the current rule set, I think the server needs a stricter teamhit policy and one that punishes perpetrators rather than victims, and one that deters repeat offending: it is more reasonable to have a careless player kill three friendly players to then be kicked than a careless player running around multiple rounds hitting friendlies continuously without repercussions.

Imagine what malicious trolls could do with a 100% teamhit Before getting kicked.

Killing a teammate capping the flag at the last second for example just for the sake of ruining his team's effort.

Also as you said this is a heavily populated casual server. 100% friend teamhit might result in mass carnage , anger and more retaliation, and kickpolls... And then the toxic trolls...

 

 

 

 potentially augmented by a system of three kicks and you are - temporarily - banned.

 

This already exists.

 

I think the server needs a stricter teamhit policy and one that punishes perpetrators rather than victims,

 

Agreed. i think the stun effect should (if possible) be removed.

 

There is no easy way to really manage it effectively no matter the option, not to mention the transition would be tricky and painful at first, whatever the decision would be. However, i would agree that something needs to be changed in some way so that the person that got hit isn't punished to all hell. Sadly doing this would encourage people to stand under the oil or where siege weapons commonly attack, this would only punish the person using that equipment, which itself is not great either.

agreed.

Edited by The_Knight_Who_Says_NI, 11 June 2019 - 08:31 AM.

[BlackDeath]

We need many time (years) in the past judging and checking until we got a balanced % to finally apply the current default setting as it is now.

For this "balance" we mean:

• a fair setting for players (those who have care with own team, and try don't teamkill accidentally, so for others being auto-kicked/banned for this, should start having more care)
• a fair setting for teamkillers (for they can get a proper auto-punish applied by server after some bad behaviour done without need of admin, so they can watch for others needing admin help at same time)
• good setting for when "there are no admins online", and let server auto-manage these teamkillers (this works like this: 3 kicks = auto-kicked from server / 3 kicks = auto-ban = one hour ban)

 

Actual setting (and same since many years ago) is:

• own damage by teamkill: 10%
• damage to team (teamkill): 5%

It won't change by now.

 

ps: HAVE CARE... it's simple

[Goiyon]

We need many time (years) in the past judging and checking until we got a balanced % to finally apply the current default setting as it is now.

For this "balance" we mean:

• a fair setting for players (those who have care with own team, and try don't teamkill accidentally, so for others being auto-kicked/banned for this, should start having more care)
• a fair setting for teamkillers (for they can get a proper auto-punish applied by server after some bad behaviour done without need of admin, so they can watch for others needing admin help at same time)
• good setting for when "there are no admins online", and let server auto-manage these teamkillers (this works like this: 3 kicks = auto-kicked from server / 3 kicks = auto-ban = one hour ban)

 

Actual setting (and same since many years ago) is:

• own damage by teamkill: 10%
• damage to team (teamkill): 5%

It won't change by now.

 

ps: HAVE CARE... it's simple

 

I understand that this is a system that has been deliberately chosen and has been in place for many years. And, to be honest with you, I did not expect any changes to be forthcoming, not in the least because it is after all the most popular server and I understand why no one would be eager to consider changes to what seems to be running rather well with 100+ players during peak hours.

 

However, I do hope that it's somewhat clear in what way the current implementations of teamhits and the repercussions are lacking. It might never see change by the mod team, but neither will people's disregard for their surroundings and team members if there isn't a more effective deterrent in place. I can live with that, but I just think it's a great thing that could become better.

 

Anyway, thanks for entertaining the notion.

[Pepper]

I disagree with full team damage on a server like mount&siege. Sure the 3 strike thing could create less careless and more skillfull play, and it kind of worked on 22nd/wolfpack_siege, but it opens it up for trolls and such especially with the lack of admins on the server.

 

For instance if you had a group of friends you could continuously kill the same player without much risk, just take turns. It's also very unfriendly to new players trying to learn the game.

 

My favourite was ZHG's (30%ish) reflective damage on the person teamhitting. It didn't screw over the person being teamhit and it made it so you were forced to learn how to play to make sure you didn't kill yourself.