11 replies to this topic

[MossyPickle]

We talked about this a little bit on Discord but I'd like to request a small buff for Sarranids. Of course, this would be limited to just TG_Captain_Battle, just like how Khergit Shooting Javelins aren't in Arena.

 

The Sarranids are the weakest faction right now and I don't think I've ever seen a team with Sarranids win yet (besides the cavalry-dominated maps). It's not fun getting dominated every time simply because your faction is trash compared to others. The cavalry is good, the infantry is okay, but the archers are utter dogshit. TrollGame NeoGK has done wonders with Khergits (they're actually really fun to play now), why not give Sarranids the same treatment? Nord Archers, Rhodok Crossbowmen, and Khergit Horse Archers also got buffed (better armor) as well, I don't see why this would reaching too far. It just boggles me that, out of all the factions, the NORDS have better archers. It takes 7-8 shots as a Sarranid Archer to kill a Nord in a byrnie, which is ridiculous. Sarranids are a desert faction for goodness sake, their skirmishers and archers should be viable.

 

I've had multiple games where my Sarranid archers were shooting into a clump of enemies for a minute straight, and not a single kill popped up. Their archers simply don't do any damage, and I believe it is because their bows are so bad. Sure, they have high firing rates, but what good is that in an bot battle where the AI can't aim for shit? That's why every shot landed needs to do as much damage as possible, and yet Sarranids can only buy a bow with 18p damage (seriously, why do Sarranid Archers only get 2 options for buyable bows)? It's preposterous how Sarranid Archers are so shit, they need to be buffed so they can stand a chance against other factions.

 

 

Some suggestions were:

• Better melee weapons (2H?) and shields 
• Replacing archers with a skirmisher unit (with lots of power throw, athletics, and throwing proficiency I guess?) 
• Add horses to give them an HA option (like how Vaegir Cav can buy a bow and arrows, as well as it fits into the whole desert nomad theme)
• My suggestion—just give them better bows (the Javelin Bow that Khergits also get maybe? Without the Shooting Javelins, of course).

[Ramun]

Me rikey

[Pepper]

I don't particually like the sarranid archer but it's a lot better than people give it credit for, and generally people play it wrong anyway. People often buy the short bow as it actually costs money but it's worse than the nomad bow.

 

When thinking about archery it's important to point out that speed is very important. It's never worth buying the high damage slower bows like the long bow and the warbow, speedier bows are simply better as generally most players arent walking around in full armour. If they are, the slow bows are too slow to get multiple shots in before they raise their shield or whatever. The damage isn't massively different when considering the heathpool of units is around 50/60ish so usually 2 arrows + speed bonus is enough for leather etc, especially with a headshot. With a stronger bow you usually still need to get 2 hits in without headshot.

 

Sarranids have the same power draw as nords and khergits (5) already and actually have a higher bow skill (150 to 142) (Source for the stats, might have changed I can't find a more up to date version). Khergit archers (without the horse) are pretty much just cheap versions of Vaegirs and are less accurate, they just get by with strong equipment but up against any other faction they never dominate.

 

Sarranids have been buffed in the sense that they can buy fire arrows. I think if you wanted to do something so players understood the class better, make it so the short bow was free but the nomad bow isn't. Sarranid archers usually die easily because they pick the rubbish turbans which don't protect a headshot, but they have higher ironflesh then any other archer so if you gear well you're pretty strong.

 

TL;DR: Always buy the 430g helmet and the nomad bow and you're fine.

 

[Iceqatius]

I fully agree with OP, the Sarranid archers are extremely poor in comparison with all the others and needs a major buff.

 

 

Sarranids have the same power draw as nords and khergits (5) already and actually have a higher bow skill (150 to 142) (Source for the stats, might have changed I can't find a more up to date version). Khergit archers (without the horse) are pretty much just cheap versions of Vaegirs and are less accurate, they just get by with strong equipment but up against any other faction they never dominate.

 

Incorrect, the numbers you are referring to is for the normal multiplayer games where the player is a Sarranid. The bots in Captain Mode uses a different template (multiplayer_ai vs just multiplayer) and this is reflected in the stats. Lets go to the source and look:

 

Nord_archer_multiplayer_ai: https://imgur.com/f265Sk1

 

khergit_veteran_horse_archer_ai: https://imgur.com/31CRTGU

 

Rhodok_veteran_crossbowman_multiplayer_ai: https://imgur.com/tai0vms

 

Sarranid_archer_multiplayer_ai: https://imgur.com/NRnkVME

 

Swadian_crossbowman_multiplayer_ai:https://imgur.com/fScuvRf

 

Vaegir_archer_multiplayer_ai: https://imgur.com/WecvQjy

 

If we look at all these stats we can see that the developers weren't very generous towards the Sarranid multiplayer bots.

 

Power Draw for the factions: Nord - 5, Khergit - 5, Rhodok - 0 (120 Crossbow), Sarranid - 0, Swadia - 0 (100 Crossbow) and Vaegir - 5.

 

How did this happen you ask, well the most likely answer is that they were forgotten. Not many people play LAN games against bots and before this mod lifted up the preexisting rudimentary captains mode nobody cared about this issue.

 

 

[Pepper]

I fully agree with OP, the Sarranid archers are extremely poor in comparison with all the others and needs a major buff.

 

 

Incorrect, the numbers you are referring to is for the normal multiplayer games where the player is a Sarranid. The bots in Captain Mode uses a different template (multiplayer_ai vs just multiplayer) and this is reflected in the stats. Lets go to the source and look:

 

Nord_archer_multiplayer_ai: https://imgur.com/f265Sk1

 

khergit_veteran_horse_archer_ai: https://imgur.com/31CRTGU

 

Rhodok_veteran_crossbowman_multiplayer_ai: https://imgur.com/tai0vms

 

Sarranid_archer_multiplayer_ai: https://imgur.com/NRnkVME

 

Swadian_crossbowman_multiplayer_ai:https://imgur.com/fScuvRf

 

Vaegir_archer_multiplayer_ai: https://imgur.com/WecvQjy

 

If we look at all these stats we can see that the developers weren't very generous towards the Sarranid multiplayer bots.

 

Power Draw for the factions: Nord - 5, Khergit - 5, Rhodok - 0 (120 Crossbow), Sarranid - 0, Swadia - 0 (100 Crossbow) and Vaegir - 5.

 

How did this happen you ask, well the most likely answer is that they were forgotten. Not many people play LAN games against bots and before this mod lifted up the preexisting rudimentary captains mode nobody cared about this issue.

Wow that is something, fair play then. This definitely needs to be fixed if that is the case.

 

I honestly didn't notice this was in the 'captain battle' section as I just saw it on the feed, so a lot of my points are kinda bad now as I know fk all about bot battles, so you can ignore my post for the most part. My bad xD

[Mikhail]

[*]Add horses to give them an HA option (like how Vaegir Cav can buy a bow and arrows, as well as it fits into the whole desert nomad theme)[/*]
[/LIST]

Sarranid archers can take horse with neogk already. Swadians also. Well, I take it always and I smash with my fire arrows. I don't use to play archer, but I kinda like to play it when it's sarranids or rhodoks factions cuz u can burn tons of people. I don't know if bots can have a horse or not btw.
But I agree with ur proposal of adding javelin bow, another bow and maybe one 2H-weapon or shields to balance the bots on Captain Battle. And improve the faction in other servers like siege.

Of course, this would be limited to just TG_Captain_Battle, just like how Khergit Shooting Javelins aren't in Arena.

I don't know if you have latest versions of neogk but in arena you can have javelin bow too. It was added months ago.

[MossyPickle]

I don't particually like the sarranid archer but it's a lot better than people give it credit for, and generally people play it wrong anyway. People often buy the short bow as it actually costs money but it's worse than the nomad bow.

 

When thinking about archery it's important to point out that speed is very important. It's never worth buying the high damage slower bows like the long bow and the warbow, speedier bows are simply better as generally most players arent walking around in full armour. If they are, the slow bows are too slow to get multiple shots in before they raise their shield or whatever. The damage isn't massively different when considering the heathpool of units is around 50/60ish so usually 2 arrows + speed bonus is enough for leather etc, especially with a headshot. With a stronger bow you usually still need to get 2 hits in without headshot.

 

Sarranids have the same power draw as nords and khergits (5) already and actually have a higher bow skill (150 to 142) (Source for the stats, might have changed I can't find a more up to date version). Khergit archers (without the horse) are pretty much just cheap versions of Vaegirs and are less accurate, they just get by with strong equipment but up against any other faction they never dominate.

 

Sarranids have been buffed in the sense that they can buy fire arrows. I think if you wanted to do something so players understood the class better, make it so the short bow was free but the nomad bow isn't. Sarranid archers usually die easily because they pick the rubbish turbans which don't protect a headshot, but they have higher ironflesh then any other archer so if you gear well you're pretty strong.

 

TL;DR: Always buy the 430g helmet and the nomad bow and you're fine.

 

I often roll with the Nomad bow as well, I just forgot if the Short Bow technically had a higher projectile speed. It's a shame that they have 20p and 18p damage, respectively. Meanwhile, Nord Archers can buy a Long Bow (22p) and arrows with +3 damage, alongside Scale Armor and powerful 2H Axes.

 

Sarranid archers can take horse with neogk already. Swadians also. Well, I take it always and I smash with my fire arrows. I don't use to play archer, but I kinda like to play it when it's sarranids or rhodoks factions cuz u can burn tons of people. I don't know if bots can have a horse or not btw.
But I agree with ur proposal of adding javelin bow, another bow and maybe one 2H-weapon or shields to balance the bots on Captain Battle. And improve the faction in other servers like siege.


I don't know if you have latest versions of neogk but in arena you can have javelin bow too. It was added months ago.

 

I'm using the TrollGame version so there might be some differences. Currently, Sarranid Archers can't buy a horse, it seems. I might be mistaking the TG Arena with the other Arena server, but I remember you can use the Javelin Bow, but the Shooting Javelin ammo is not allowed. I like the Flaming Arrows too, but they just don't do enough damage to make it worth it to me. At least if they got shields, they could get closer to other archers to utilize their higher attack speed. As it stands, they just spam inaccurate and low-damage arrows.

[vikoking]

i didnt read your messages above cuz i have laziness issues lately but 

 

i think if you buff sarranid archers in any way they would be the second most OP faction on battle , considering they have the best calvary and decent fast infantry , archers they also have scimitar as 1h sword, scimitars are actually the best 1h swords in the game -imo-

 

but if it is to buff them, then adding just one thing ->  +3dmg arrow would do, i think sarranids need this little buff for siege especally -imo-

[BlackDeath]

I don't play in battle, but I want add some info also (...but, forget it if my hints aren't possible to apply in this server, I've never checked, sorry):

• Whatever faction you are, when play archer get cheap bow, and after some time playing with it, info us
• Fire ammo, like arrows/bolts can damage (even destroy) shields... give it a try

pd: sarranid's archers + fire arrows are... if you know how to play them (...ninja style ...or...as teamwork together/near with your infantry)

[Joss]

Only problem with sarranids i feel is that they are slow kebabs, although they got cheap weapons, fire arrows and decent armor + scimitar
Maybe make them run faster and give khergit bow as 3rd bow option

[Ayna]

Only problem with sarranids is that their win/draw strategy (all cavalry, if enemy camps then wait) is hard and not obvious for new players and boring for many others.

 

Sarranids are not so bad as thought. Yes, their infantry and archers are trash, but the strongest class in game is cavalry, if well played, so who cares. Infantry and archers just need to cover cavalry weaknesses and they do. Sarranids have strong top 3 cavalry with awesome 38 dmg axes (sounds not so cool? its also stronger than most of infantry and archers, cool enough now? ), 2hand axe infantry to counter stronger cavalry (vaegir/rhodok) and pathetic but still archers to counter pikemen and 2h infantry. With these units sarranids are good on open flat ground, but many players find waiting boring and prefer to suicide attacking ruins. Also sarranids suffer from bad equipment choise, like worn robes (i have no explanation why are they so popular) or bamboo spears (they can only tickle horses and make them laugh).

 

Sarranid archers suck a lot. I have never succeeded to kill anyone with sarranid bow, because its garbage and i am trash archer, but i have seen players who killed dozens of enemies. Anyway sarranid archer bots are useless unless enemies are naked and have no shelds. Their 0 archery skill explains everything, making it 5 would be really fair.

[Ramun]

but the strongest class in game is cavalry

Excuse you I think you mean Slave Hunter Infantry