136 replies to this topic

[zahu]

Sidenote: Swadia is the faction with the most versatile selection. Top tier 1h, top tier 2h, top tier cav, top tier crossbows. There is a reason why 90% of the players chooses Swadia when its one of the featured factions. No one wants to be a khergit or a sarranid over a swad.

except for the gunners and horse archers...

[mumbuz]

wtf

[Saddoveanu]

You'd need some pretty strong arguments when arguing for restricting other player's options - otherwise you're essentially saying that your preferences are more important than theirs.

 

I don't think "balance" is a valid argument - DM isn't supposed to be balanced in any way; the chaos is part of it's charm. For players that take this game a bit more seriously and want a fair fight, there is duel - but for a casual it would be pretty depressing to join and find it's filled with Swadian clones spazzing out greatswords.

 

"they're ruining it for everyone" would be a valid argument but there is no data for that - by definition, casuals won't be frequenting the forums and voting on polls. Not sure how many different players we have on arena per month, but it would be a lot more than the ones that voted in the poll. And if we're talking about the interest of the DM player base as a whole, casuals matter because they generally outnumber regulars by quite a bit. You'd also have to consider that even among regulars, a significant number prefer cav/archer - even if just for "speed travel" or other misc reasons like a class-specific item. Of course, such limits would also be an excellent opportunity for trolling as players will take these limited classes just to deny them to others.

 

Cav and archers are annoying af, but spears, shields and thrown items are pretty good defences. Not perfect; great lances and "tank" horses are pretty much unbeatable by an inf, regardless of what kind of spear you have - but most of the times, when you just equip the spear, cavs turn away - even apex predators prefer easy prey (ppl with no spear or not looking) When there are too many cavs, most maps have at least some locations where you can be safe from them or that can be defended. You can also build walls - and defend them; this can be barricades, or "living" walls - ad-hoc gangs of spearmen which make life hard for the cursed cavs - hopefully. It's like a fun meta-game. Not saying this as advice, of course - just another (casual) inf perspective.

 

Another argument against, mentioned by Anny (cav), and previously by BlackDeath (archer) - cav/archer is like an equalizer for players with bad ping; it evens the odds a bit.

[Annabella Campbell]

 - but most of the times, when you just equip the spear, cavs turn away - even apex predators prefer easy prey (ppl with no spear or not looking)

Truth. Why take the unnecessary risk and attack a persons with some pike or throwing axes,losing horse and die  if you can attack players with two handed sword or something

[TheHunterMikiPL]

Mfw I want to play cav first time in a really long time, but I can't because there is that retarded limit.

 

[yrod]

Mfw I want to play cav first time in a really long time, but I can't because there is that retarded limit.

That's right. Because 50% of forum members decided that they're more equal than others.

[mumbuz]

You'd need some pretty strong arguments when arguing for restricting other player's options - otherwise you're essentially saying that your preferences are more important than theirs.

 

I don't think "balance" is a valid argument - DM isn't supposed to be balanced in any way; the chaos is part of it's charm. For players that take this game a bit more seriously and want a fair fight, there is duel - but for a casual it would be pretty depressing to join and find it's filled with Swadian clones spazzing out greatswords.

 

"they're ruining it for everyone" would be a valid argument but there is no data for that - by definition, casuals won't be frequenting the forums and voting on polls. Not sure how many different players we have on arena per month, but it would be a lot more than the ones that voted in the poll. And if we're talking about the interest of the DM player base as a whole, casuals matter because they generally outnumber regulars by quite a bit. You'd also have to consider that even among regulars, a significant number prefer cav/archer - even if just for "speed travel" or other misc reasons like a class-specific item. Of course, such limits would also be an excellent opportunity for trolling as players will take these limited classes just to deny them to others.

 

Cav and archers are annoying af, but spears, shields and thrown items are pretty good defences. Not perfect; great lances and "tank" horses are pretty much unbeatable by an inf, regardless of what kind of spear you have - but most of the times, when you just equip the spear, cavs turn away - even apex predators prefer easy prey (ppl with no spear or not looking) When there are too many cavs, most maps have at least some locations where you can be safe from them or that can be defended. You can also build walls - and defend them; this can be barricades, or "living" walls - ad-hoc gangs of spearmen which make life hard for the cursed cavs - hopefully. It's like a fun meta-game. Not saying this as advice, of course - just another (casual) inf perspective.

 

Another argument against, mentioned by Anny (cav), and previously by BlackDeath (archer) - cav/archer is like an equalizer for players with bad ping; it evens the odds a bit.

 

So balanced maps shouldn't be a thing? 

[Saddoveanu]

So balanced maps shouldn't be a thing? 

With regards to maps, this discussion was started to discuss unbalanced maps specifically - balanced maps are obviously good and i don't have anything against them.

 

My point was that the proposed solution (for unbalanced maps) might have unintended consequences and we don't have enough data to support it.

[Kamby]

Best data we have is a survey of player feedback. Almost 50/50 as of right now.

If you add unbalanced maps and dont intent to balance them, you need to balance other things to make sure the maps doesn’t have players abusing whats overpowered. Deathmatch isnt supposed to be “restricted” so to speak as you mentioned earlier, but if a player goes 100-3 10 maps in a row with no real counters something has to be done imo

[MoB_Griff]

Almost 50 is not 50.

[scatman]

quick maths

[deformedgremlin]

Teaming isnt allowed

[noodle]

the fact that these changes still havent been made is a testament that the majority of the arena players including the moderators and admins are so fucking bad at the game that even after years of playing it they still havent realised how absurdly unbalanced classes in this game are

maybe instead of telling everyone that wants these changes to go to ludus you should spent some time there yourself and get good enough at the game that we can have an educated discussion

right now it feels like trying to convince a class room of preschool children that they should eat vegetables instead of sweets and losing the argument because there is more children and they can shout louder

 

[noodle]

many skilled infantry players including myself have stopped playing on this server because we have been asking for these exact changes for years and every time it falls on deaf ears

if all these players havent left already we would have won that poll

if you want your server to be filled with new players, archers and cavalry you are going in the right direction

[yrod]

Recently played a couple of times on Arena without horses or with one or two and it was extremely quite and boring.

 

 

many skilled infantry players including myself have stopped playing on this server because we have been asking for these exact changes for years

 

Skilled players left, Arena still has 30-50+ online. Let's limit horses and all skilled players will return, sure. And sure thing they left not because they grew up or found something else - just because horses, right

[Annabella Campbell]

Whole topic in a nutshell

[Joss]

There is problem in modern games which many people never notice is the fact they get constantly balanced through patches and updates while old games were released at full completion.
What effect has balancing games? - take a star for example, 5 pointed symbol of perfection, now imagine if 1 dude comes along and say that edge is taller than the other 4, lets grind it down to balance it out, now the other edges are longer than the balanced one, fine grind these down to. This goes on and on until what was once a star was grinded down into dull 0. Point being, dont touch something that's already perfect.
This effect can be applied here - we got different servers, 6 factions, 3 classes to choose, now there are people who say 1 class overpowers the other classes, fine we remove or reduce cav, next thing arhcers are too strong, fine we remove or reduce archers, now 2h players are unbeatable and some of them use autoblock, fine we change block in server for autoblock to everyone making shields irrelevant. Then there is only Arena with few people who join in for 1-2 hours per day to fight with dull weapons until someone suggests that teaming should be banned. Then people ask what happen to TG? these servers used to be good x years ago.

[noodle]

There is problem in modern games which many people never notice is the fact they get constantly balanced through patches and updates while old games were released at full completion.
What effect has balancing games? - take a star for example, 5 pointed symbol of perfection, now imagine if 1 dude comes along and say that edge is taller than the other 4, lets grind it down to balance it out, now the other edges are longer than the balanced one, fine grind these down to. This goes on and on until what was once a star was grinded down into dull 0. Point being, dont touch something that's already perfect.
This effect can be applied here - we got different servers, 6 factions, 3 classes to choose, now there are people who say 1 class overpowers the other classes, fine we remove or reduce cav, next thing arhcers are too strong, fine we remove or reduce archers, now 2h players are unbeatable and some of them use autoblock, fine we change block in server for autoblock to everyone making shields irrelevant. Then there is only Arena with few people who join in for 1-2 hours per day to fight with dull weapons until someone suggests that teaming should be banned. Then people ask what happen to TG? these servers used to be good x years ago.

i wont even bother responding to you

your the dumbest fuck of them all

[Kamby]

There is problem in modern games which many people never notice is the fact they get constantly balanced through patches and updates while old games were released at full completion.
What effect has balancing games? - take a star for example, 5 pointed symbol of perfection, now imagine if 1 dude comes along and say that edge is taller than the other 4, lets grind it down to balance it out, now the other edges are longer than the balanced one, fine grind these down to. This goes on and on until what was once a star was grinded down into dull 0. Point being, dont touch something that's already perfect.
This effect can be applied here - we got different servers, 6 factions, 3 classes to choose, now there are people who say 1 class overpowers the other classes, fine we remove or reduce cav, next thing arhcers are too strong, fine we remove or reduce archers, now 2h players are unbeatable and some of them use autoblock, fine we change block in server for autoblock to everyone making shields irrelevant. Then there is only Arena with few people who join in for 1-2 hours per day to fight with dull weapons until someone suggests that teaming should be banned. Then people ask what happen to TG? these servers used to be good x years ago.

W T F

[TheHunterMikiPL]

if a player goes 100-3 10 maps in a row with no real counters something has to be done imo

I haven't witnessed 100% of games on TG_Arena, but I am pretty sure it has never happened.
Even as a cav getting 100-3 once is very hard, there is no way someone would get that 10 times in a row.
Especially that if you kill a lot of people they get pissed which means some people start hunting you down.
And as people already said there is a lot of counters. Infantry actually has advantage over cav. Cav has advantage mostly when inf doesn't expect to be attacked (and it is also easier to get better k/d because you can choose who you want to fight due to your speed, and you can easier do surprise attacks).